Catch the Full Episode
Overview
Every agency founder wants to get out of the daily grind eventually. Jason Swenk’s take: the real win isn’t getting to the CEO, it’s building something that doesn’t need it at all, and most founders stop well before they get there. In this episode, John Jantsch talks to Swenk about the five stages every agency founder goes through on the road to self-sustaining business.
Jantsch and Swenk cover the identity change required at each stage, why founders make bad first-time managers, and what business looks like when you finally get out of your own way.
Back in the vault and it’s worth a listen: this one is for agency owners and consultants who know that business is heavily dependent on them and are ready to change that.
Guest Bio
Jason Swenk is the founder of Agency Mastery and host of the Smart Agency Masterclass Podcast. He built his own digital agency from scratch, working with clients including AT&T, Hitachi, and LegalZoom, before selling it. He now advises 7 and 8 figure agency founders on building self-sustaining businesses. His book, User to ownerThe map is the five stages every agency founder must navigate to truly build the business they have. Get the book and free diagnostics at operatorownerrevolution.com.
Key Takeaways
- Being a CEO is not the finish line. Many founders mistake the operator or manager stage for success and never move on to true ownership.
- The growth of the institution goes through five identity stages: operator, manager, builder, CEO, and owner. Each category needs to be a different person, not just hire different people.
- Founders who feel irreplaceable often sabotage their progress, jumping back into meetings or working to feel needed again.
- The real barrier to manager and property categories is not the team. It is the inventor who is the answer to all questions instead of building systems that allow others to decide.
- Hiring a salesperson early on rarely works, because founders are the best salespeople in the room simply because they know the stories. Organizing those issues is what makes employment productive.
- Choosing a niche is not about your biggest or most profitable customers. Ask who you would work for even if you were only paid to work, and let that answer point the way.
- Quitting sales, or any role related to self-reflection and competition, is often the most difficult transition innovators face, and past transitions are non-negotiable as AI raises the stakes for everyone still doing manual labor.
Time stamps
- [00:59] – Jantsch asks Swenk when he realizes that the agency has its owner above him.
- [02:27] – Swenk outlines five levels: operator, manager, builder, CEO, owner.
- [04:24] – Swenk describes the “rubber band effect,” where setbacks begin to feel insignificant.
- [07:08] – Swenk’s story about moving an AI workflow in front of a team member to learn how to build it himself.
- [11:38] – Focused on giving the team room to make decisions: “fender benders, not train wrecks.”
- [14:08] – The Vegas buffet way to find your place.
Memorable Quotes
- “It’s not about who you need to hire. It’s about who you need to be.” – Jason Swenk
- “You have to be good with fender benders, but avoid train wrecks.” – Jason Swenk
- “If you had to be paid only for work, who would you do it for and what would you do it for?” – Jason Swenk
- “You start an agency to leave nine to five to start 24 with seven. Like, it doesn’t make sense.” – Jason Swenk
- “If you don’t change, you don’t do anything.” – Jason Swenk
